Transcription

[00:00:03]

Hello, everyone, and welcome. Welcome. I am so very excited to spend this time with you today. Thank you for taking a little bit of time out of your day to be here with me. I cannot wait to introduce you to my friend Carla, who is here with us today to talk about an element of uncommon pleasure that I am so excited to learn more about myself.

[00:00:29]

And so, Carla, would you tell the lovely people who you are, where you are and what you do because you're an incredible human being? Thank you, Sarah, for that introduction. I'm a trauma informed the Certified Sex of a Relationship coach. I'm based in the UK in the northwest of England, and I work with disgendered men and women internationally to help them understand themselves and each other sexually and relationally, in and out of the bedroom. So, yeah, encompasses lots of different things, but, yeah, oral sex is something that I get spoken to quite often.

[00:01:12]

So, yeah, that's what we're here to chat about today. Yeah, because you reached out, we met each other a while back. We're both connected to an incredible sexologist named Cam Fraser, who will be joining us a little bit later here as well, too. And you reached out and said, hey, could I come on the podcast and talk about a couple of different topics? And one that you sent to me stood right out when we were thinking of theming, these episodes around uncommon Pleasure, and that was about receiving pleasure while giving oral sex.

[00:01:49]

So not about receiving pleasure while receiving oral sex, which is a whole, you know, other practice, but I think one that most people kind of associate and go, yeah, makes sense, you know, that's pleasurable, but that you can experience a lot of pleasure being on the giving end as well. I thought we have to talk about this. And Carla, I am so looking forward to exploring this topic with you. I'm wondering, where would you like to begin? Like, one thing that came to my mind preparing for today was just this recognition that in general, there is a lot of taboo in society around oral sex.

[00:02:29]

And I wonder, is that something that gets in the way of experiencing pleasure while giving? I'm wondering what comes up for you when you reflect on that yourself. Yeah, so as we were chatting about earlier, before we hit the record button, I'm creating a course specifically around blow jobs. And that's because my own personal journey was really sort of empowering my inner slut. And being the full sexual expression of myself did actually involve learning to love how to give a blowjob back when I was younger.

[00:03:09]

So I'm 42 now. And back when I was younger, in my 20s, there was a lot of shame and embarrassment around doing it. Also, in my twenty s, I considered myself a little bit of an anti man feminist. So the idea of kneeling down in front of a man and just felt really, really icky and felt like I was giving something to them and not necessarily receiving back. Also, I think as you said yourself, there can be quite a lot of stigma around oral sex.

[00:03:40]

And as a woman, for me, grown up Catholic, southern Italian heritage, it felt like the woman that does oral sex and enjoys it is the woman who's really sturdy and I try to avoid at all costs being that person. So yes, the journey for me was learning to love that part of myself, really learning to connect to my inner flat and then being able to fully be present and really, really enjoy it. And a lot of that journey was loving the part of myself that wanted to do it and wanted to experience it, and also doing a lot of my own internal work as well around becoming empowered in myself. Because when you feel empowered, kneeling down in front of another human being doesn't feel like you're losing your power. Because back in my twenty s I didn't feel in my power, kneeling down in front of somebody else felt like I was given even more power away.

[00:04:35]

So yeah, it was very much about stepping into my own power and being able to really be present while giving head. Well, one thing that really resonated with me listening to your story, because some of this I haven't heard this before. I didn't know you came from an Italian Catholic background. That already gave me a little bit of a jolt in my body. I went, oh, okay, so we're talking here about the complexity and the layers, right?

[00:05:06]

And about this slut shaming as a thing that separated you from this pleasure earlier on in life and that actually getting in touch with that inner slut was part of how you were able to experience pleasure being on the giving end. Have I got that right? Yes, it is exactly that. Yeah. And it was really as well, like my relationship with cops also changed dramatically in my twenty s.

[00:05:37]

I saw them as sort of an erect cop was really intimidating, really scary. It was this whole idea of penetration and taking my relationship to sex was very, very yeah, it was like I wasn't really allowed to enjoy having sex. Sex is more for the man because if I enjoyed it, then again I was going to be sexy. And there was this part of myself that was denying and when you deny those parts of yourself, you tend to project that shadow part onto other people around you that are doing it. So yeah, it was really part of my journey was actually really fully embracing Cox and specifically as well, like an erect penis and removing that sort of in a way fear because it felt almost like weaponized.

[00:06:27]

And the way that men would also speak about their cups was really intimidating. So really learning to love and appreciate erect penises was like the beginning of my journey. And then also moving towards really loving and enjoying soft cops as well. So that has also been part of my journey. So I had a partner because I'm non monogamous, so I had a partner that got erectile dysfunction.

[00:06:55]

And so learning to really love and appreciate playing with a soft cart was just as important as learning to love and appreciate playing with a hard one. And it was really interesting as well, bringing myself to a present moment and looking at the genitals and really noticing what do I actually like? You know, touching, feeling which parts I really like, how certain parts of, like, the testicles might move, and really, really being very, very present and just noticing what came up in my body as I was doing as well, being really aware. Is there any way that I'm getting shame? Do I feel a bit embarrassed touching a certain part of their body and learning to find, like I said, the parts that were really, really interesting for me that I found really attractive and voicing them as well.

[00:07:45]

And I just found that voicing the parts of the genitals that I find attractive also for the man felt really good to receive that. Because quite often when we give people compliments, we never really include their genitals, as women might receive compliments about our bottoms or our breasts or our faces or our hair or all of those different things, but no one actually looks at your vulva and says, I really love your clip. Or I love the way that your lips are shaped and hanged in this way. Or I realize the color. Nobody stays up to you.

[00:08:25]

But I had a guy once, I hadn't even talked about giving compliments, and he was just looking at me, your clip's really pretty. And I was like, oh, my God. That just felt like a really huge compliment because I got used to doing it with men based on my training and yeah, it was just to receive. It was amazing. I thought, Gosh, when I do that for men, they probably do feel this huge sense of, well, that feels really good to receive.

[00:08:58]

There's so much I want to respond to what you said, so to pick up right where you've left off. In my years and years in practice, because for many years I primarily worked with men in Stem fields, and that still makes up a pretty large proportion of my clientele. I love these folks. And one thing I heard from many men, actually, is that receiving compliments is powerful and it's something that's not done. And I think there's sometimes this pervasive belief among men that women get complimented all the time and it's sometimes like it's one of those.

[00:09:40]

Yeah, but sometimes compliments are only given as part of a transaction when you're trying to get something and then it's not actually genuine. And so I think there really is something so powerful in terms of pleasure potential in the giving of genuine compliments. So what you see and what you enjoy, just voicing that out loud. That's actually something I advise clients when they're like, I don't know how to do dirty talk. I'm like, well, here's one place you can start.

[00:10:12]

Because even though that doesn't feel like traditional dirty talk, I tell you what, it does an awful lot in terms of arousal. So I love that. And thank you, Carla, so much for acknowledging and giving love to the softcox, because I think this is important and needs to be spoken about more and embraced more in the world. Because erectile difficulty itself can generate a lot of shame. Right.

[00:10:40]

And that's a recurring theme of our conversations so far, is like the role that shame is playing here in the background. And you've mentioned a couple of times shame where I felt it in my body and about these bodily sensations. And I'm wondering, could you speak a little bit to the sematics of being able to receive pleasure while giving? Yeah. So in relation to sort of like touch or sematics, in relation to how the body feels in the process of touch or all of it.

[00:11:17]

All of it. Anything that will help our listeners to gain more pleasure from giving. Yeah. So for me, it's about getting really curious. So you probably know Sarah Martin and the waking of the hands.

[00:11:35]

So people like, go on YouTube and look for that, but being really present to feel exactly the different parts of the body and keeping your eyes closed, just noticing how it feels on your fingers. And rather than the temptation of, like, doing the pleasure for them, being really aware of how it feels, you know, to move your fingers in a particular place. And if you use your tongue, how does it feel to rather than just for oral sex, if you give an oral sex to a woman, rather than just going straight to the clitoris and then flicking it, or if you're a woman going straight for the head and sucking on it, like getting really curious. How does it feel on my tongue to lick under the testicles or on the inside of the lips or on the outside or around the vagina? Or how does it feel to lick the frenulum of the penis and just being really mindful as you're doing that and noticing all the different sensations and then, you know, using your lips different ways of manipulating different types?

[00:12:42]

Of sucking different types of flicking and noticing for yourself how that feels in your mouth, how it feels on your fingers when you have your fingers involved and just really taking your time, like, you know, can I put myself in a place of curiosity as though I've never done this or seen this or experienced this before? And the thing is, a person who is receiving even though they might not be experiencing pleasure in the sense of really heightened states of excitement because they're not necessarily being stimulated in a particular way, the curiosity and enjoyment that you as the person doing the action is experiencing is a huge turn on for the person that's receiving the oral sex. It's massive because when you know that someone who's there wants to be there and is really enjoying themselves, that in itself is a massive turn on.

[00:13:48]

Yes, because it is you know, when you've got your legs open and the guy is there, you know if he wants to be there or not. And if he doesn't want to be there, then you're in your head, it's like, why doesn't he want to be there? Is there something wrong with me? Does he not really like it? Is there a smell?

[00:14:06]

And you just get totally in your head and then you're like, I'm not enjoying this, I'm completely in my head. And then you just want to move on to the next thing. But you know when a guy wants to be there and you just oh gosh. And you revel in it. And it's exactly the same for men, I think, especially because I do speak to a lot of women who struggle enjoying giving blow jobs.

[00:14:27]

And my understanding and what I'm finding is for the whole social conditioning aspect of it. So inviting women to really get curious and enjoy being present while they are giving head can completely change the experience for themselves, but also for the person receiving that as well. But sorry, your question was around somatic so yes, being really mindful of the mouth for the hands and then noticing where you're feeling an experience in the pleasure in your body because emotions that we experience, anger, sadness, whatever it might be, we can locate those sensations in our body. So being really mindful, what am I feeling and where am I feeling it? And if you do notice any tightness that comes up or anything that feels a little bit uncomfortable just accepting the fact that it's probably an element of conditioning, are you aware of what might be coming up for you around that?

[00:15:23]

And can you just hold yourself and support yourself in that? Knowing that the shame that might come up, the embarrassment that might come up is totally valid because everybody will have felt or experienced that at some point because of all the messages that we get. So just holding yourself in there, I. Think what you're saying is so very important. So our listeners and our wonderful community here, we're often talking about the systemic effects of things that can feel incredibly personal and incredibly private because you might be sitting there going like how are blow jobs connected to the social order?

[00:16:02]

But they are. And I think what's so profound in what you're saying is that it's not just ideological or it's not just in your thoughts about things, right? Like these elements of conditioning are stored in your tissues too, right? That's why certain feelings come up when you're giving oral sex, because these messages have an effect on us. And I think that's part of where slutty activism comes into its own in terms of pushing back on this system.

[00:16:35]

Because what a difference between two people totally stuck in their heads? Like, one giving and going, do they like it? I don't really like this. I'm such a slut. I'm such a skank for doing this.

[00:16:48]

Blah, blah, blah. And then the receiver being like, does she want to be doing this? Should I be throat fucking like they do in porn? Should I be in this kind of dreary situation where two people are up in their heads and therefore not present with each other and not present with the pleasure that is available to them versus the slutty deliciousness of two people showing up and being like, OK, babe, well, I think this is what I want to talk to you about, is how do you communicate so that your partner, especially if they're a new partner, understands what you're doing when you're having your explorative? And to use the Dr Sarah Martin wheel of consent framework, like, it almost sounds like you're spending some time in taking energy, where you're taking in the sensation of what looks on the surface like giving, but it's for your pleasure rather than theirs.

[00:17:40]

So I think we can come there for a moment. Come there for a moment. But to wrap up that thought, like, just the difference between the two about being present and being with the experience and being with each other and being genuinely enthusiastic rather than performing enthusiasm because some fucking person in Cosmo told you, well, be enthusiastic when you give a blowjob. Men love that shit. Like, this is what I mean.

[00:18:09]

Like, there is a fundamental element of social change embedded in what otherwise seems like quite simple and quite private things that you're talking about. Carla.

[00:18:22]

I think the communication is the key when it comes to oral sex. When it comes to sex generally, actually, everybody likes things differently. So there are a few things. So when I'm giving her a few things that I'll always check in with, because some men really like gagging, other men get freaked out by it. Some men like it really works, some men don't.

[00:18:44]

Some men like a finger at the bum, some don't. Some like the balls being touched. Some do, but only a particular way. So the first thing I do is I just run through that list, but I don't sit there with a notepad. It's just a general, like it's just like a general chitchat.

[00:19:04]

And the reason that I do that is because if it's going to be uncomfortable for them for whatever reason, or it's going to put them in their head, then I just don't do it. Or if I know that something that they particularly like. And also I'm very mindful of what I like and what I enjoy. So if they ask me something and it doesn't feel good to me, then I say, no, I don't want to do that this time. That might be another time that I might want to do it because there are some days that some things I'm really up for and then other days I'm not.

[00:19:34]

And why is that? Just is I allow myself to want certain things in a particular moment and not want them at other times and just allow that and just doesn't mean that it's always going to be a no for that. Just at this moment it's a no. And so honoring myself in that because I think also when you tend to do things always wanting to please the other person and you're not looking at what makes you feel good, it can feel really, really uncomfortable, as though you're always doing the giving and never actually receiving. And so the way that I tend to approach or sex myself is quite often I start out for myself and my own curiosity, especially when they're a new person, getting to know their body and just sort of having a feel.

[00:20:22]

Because testicles are different, rodents are different, cups are all different. So initially it's all very like tactile from my understanding, my pleasure. And then I move towards doing things that they have already talked about that they're like and then trying some things as well and say, do you like this? Or seeing their reaction if they look down and they go, what's she doing there?

[00:20:52]

Just be really mindful and tuning in. But I tend to start off quite often for myself in my own pleasure and then move over onto what I noticed is working for them. And if I'm not sure if it isn't, then I'll just ask because everybody is different. And I think quite often we can get in our heads of like, well, it worked with the last person I was with. Why isn't it not working with this one?

[00:21:17]

There's something wrong with me. And if I'm not sure if they like it or not, just ask them. That's like another one of those scripts that causes just a whole lot of preventable trouble for people, oh, this worked with the last person, why doesn't work with you? It's like, well, because I'm also a person who's right. And I'm wondering, Charlotte, could you suggest to our listeners, so let's say you have a new partner, so maybe a new friend with benefits or maybe a casual partner, or even someone who might turn into a longerterm partner.

[00:21:49]

And let's say you're wanting to do this kind of exploratory more for your own pleasure than their pleasure. What's a quick way that you let them know that this is what you want to do and see if they're game for it too. How would you actually phrase that I'm Chuck Norris and we're going to be friends with benefits. Like, how would you let me know that you're going to just check things out a little bit and is that okay? I would say, hey, Chuck, I really enjoy doing blow jobs.

[00:22:27]

So when I go down in you, I'm going to start off and just really take my time to get to explore all of your genitals and that area, and then you let me know what things you really like and what you don't like. So do you like gagging?

[00:22:45]

Sometimes? I think today I'd be up for it. Sure. And do you like it really wet or like, lots of saliva or not? I'd like it to remain contained in your mouth, please.

[00:22:58]

Okay. Do you like your balls being touched a little bit? A lot? Not at all. It's a bit sensitive.

[00:23:06]

I'm always a little bit nervous with new partners. That's just normally how it is for me. So maybe a couple of months down the line we could introduce that, but right now, no thanks. Okay. And do you like a finger up your bum or is that something that you're ready to explore?

[00:23:21]

Yeah, again, let's check in on that a bit down the road right now. Again, I'm a little bit tense. I'm excited to be here. And sometimes excited means also a little bit tense. Yeah, no worries.

[00:23:34]

Is there any place or anything that you really don't want me to do or any place that you really don't want me to go? I'm not a fan of the surprise teeth. Whoever put that in some edition of Cosmo at some point really should be reprimanded. I'm not a huge fan of painful surprises. Okay.

[00:23:53]

Thank you for letting me know. Chuck. Look at us modeling some sexual negotiation when people are always like, how do you talk about sex before having it? Like that kind of like that. The thing is, when I'm doing it, it's not like we're sat across like this.

[00:24:10]

You'll probably be kissing and I'll just, like, ask a question and then stroke a shoulder and then ask another question. And so it's a little bit more, in a way, seductive, let's say, but rather than the actual sitting there and exchange or sometimes I'll do it over message as well. Ask them questions over messages. When you're exchanging doing some sexting rather than what we just seem that it tends to be a lot more relaxed and fun. How I approach it.

[00:24:42]

What I often say to my clients, too, is if you get all up in your head about thinking about how to do this seductive or thinking about how to do it via texting, it's also okay to just kind of do it like we did and to practice. It was like, this might be a bit awkward, but I find that it's really helpful. Is that okay? And then if they're like, yeah, sure. Because, by the way, making the choice to do this, to talk about sex before having it, be that oral sex or otherwise.

[00:25:09]

And that is something I'd like to touch on about. This idea that oral sex is like an appetizer when I think that's really underselling it. But making the choice to do that sets you apart from a great deal. Very many people out there, especially folks who are on the casual sex circuit. So if you want to be an extraordinary lover, being able to have negotiation conversations like that is part of how you do it.

[00:25:35]

Whether or not it feels awkward, whether or not you can be seductive at the same time, that is not a requirement. And it also means, as well, like, if you have the conversation recently, early on, it's so much easier to do it during the sex. Like, if you want something different, it's easier than to ask for it, and it's easier to redirect if something's not really working. The partners that I have had, they have never really communicated what they want or don't want. I never had somebody like myself that's just so openly communicating.

[00:26:08]

And they find it really refreshing because they're not having to guess and the sense of, like, safety in their bodies and being able to relax just because they're not having to think, well, is this right? Am I doing it right? Because they know that I'm going to stay, or we've already talked about it, or we're already aware of how things might look and like the really sweet spots or the things that were just really not going for because nothing worse than having an unwanted surprise is that. Like, no, there's not. Don't do it.

[00:26:37]

It's not fun unless you've pre negotiated in a scene. And it's like, yes, surprise me because the anticipation of that drives me wild. Unless you very explicitly negotiated that surprises are okay, don't do it. Yeah, because then it can just really put people back in their heads and it can really close them up as well. So yeah, for sure.

[00:26:58]

But then you were saying about oral sex in relation to it being not necessarily the foreplay because I really don't like the word foreplay. I called it an appetizer. Yes, I know that you called it an appetizer, but I know a lot of people tend to consider it for the main event. And sometimes, you know what? Some of the best sex that I've had is actually with this partner who had, I say had erectile dysfunction because I don't think it was that.

[00:27:31]

I think it was erectile disappointment and then got totally in his ted and then thought he could do anything else. But some of the best decks with him has been with him. And one of the reasons being is when you're not so focusing so much on penetration, having a hard car, it just means the doors wide open for pleasure. So being able to give head with a soft car for him. He'd never experienced that initially felt a lot of embarrassment and shame about it.

[00:28:02]

And I was like, look, I really enjoy softcocks. I enjoy how they feel and how they move. I really enjoy it. He eventually twisted me and now he has completely embraced his soft cock as well. They're like velvet, aren't they?

[00:28:21]

Yes.

[00:28:26]

And it's a toughest in the way that they move as well. It feels really gentle and tender and loving. Yeah, I do. I like the lock in the I just like them shortly. I didn't used to, but yes, I do know.

[00:28:42]

And something you said, I just want to remark on it quickly because I think it's profound. And we have such a culture that hammers about erectile dysfunction as if it's a dysfunction, which is why in my training, I was taught to say erectile difficulty because that actually encompasses a lot more of what can be going on. This isn't to say that there aren't potentially medical concerns, and if you are experiencing erectile difficulty, it's great to get it checked out because that can be a super early warning sign that you might have diabetes and not know it. And in cases where there is no underlying medical cause, right. I think the pathologizing of soft penises does so much damage and it's done in order to make a bunch of money, right?

[00:29:29]

It's like hit people where they feel super insecure so that you can just harvest the cash. And I think actually for, I'll say, something controversial. So, like, if you've got opinions on this, let me know, right in leave a comment. I think there can be a great gift in experiencing a period of erectile difficulty for exactly the reason you just said, because it frees men of this totally scripted. This is how you must be as a sexual being and opens up the possibility to say, well, what is the potential for pleasure in my body if I can't just jackhammer the shit out of my partners?

[00:30:09]

It's totally that. It is exactly that because it led us on a completely different journey and it led him, as well, to really fully explore my vulva and my vagina. Because when he lost his erection, it was like, okay, let's move on and do something different. And we do, like, different types of messages. Sometimes we talk and get really, like, horny and his erection would come back.

[00:30:35]

But, you know, it really led to him just to really tune in and fully explore my vulva and really learn about it and actually look. And he said, I've never actually really paid that much attention to what a vulva looks like. I just generally go down there, do what I'm supposed to do, come back up, stick my clock in, and then there we go. But this gave him the opportunity to really, really slow down and just be present and mindful and have a completely different experience with. My body and also for me to have a different experience than for him to experience someone enjoying his body when it wasn't in inverted commas, performing.

[00:31:19]

Beautiful well. And it makes me think too, talking about slowing down. And we've referenced Dr. Sarah Martin a couple of times, but one thing I remember from the wheel of consent, and I'll make sure to link to this in the show notes and in the Facebook community group so that you can, if you're like. Who is Dr.

[00:31:37]

Sarah Martin? They keep talking about her. You will benefit from knowing about the wheel of consent people. And what I remember of it is that if you're going to be playing around with taking energy, which can be a growth edge for a lot of people, one of the best ways you can make that kind of play feel safer is to slow it down. Because sometimes when we're in that energy where this is for my pleasure, rather than giving, we can start to speed up, right?

[00:32:09]

We can start grasping almost, and the breath gets shallower, right? And that's where you can start to again, it actually takes you out of presence and then you're not there with your partner. So that slowing down can be a very powerful thing. And I think especially in terms of oral sex, where a lot of us were conditioned, that if you're going to be a hobby and do that, you just got to go as quick as possible to get it over with as fast as possible. Which, again, that's not that doesn't sound pleasant at all, right?

[00:32:43]

Like, what a shame.

[00:32:48]

Like, say, slowing down the whole process. And I think a lot of people have this idea that I think when women especially, and then, as I said, given hair, they go straight for the criticism or straightforward second, the end of the clock. And it's just like, what about a massage around the abdomen and the inner thighs? I mean, having an inner thighs touch for a man or a woman is just so erotic. Or having a massage first, either for the man or for the woman, and just really slowing it down, noticing how, as you're touching them, how it feels on the person who's doing the action.

[00:33:24]

But as you were explaining it, and you look at Bethany Martin's will of consent as the taker, because even though you're doing to somebody else, the pleasure is what you experience yourself as a person touching the taker. Yes. And just really noticing how that feels and being really curious how their body is, the different shapes, the colors, and just getting really curious how you can really be present and slow down. And if you notice, as you say, you started to speed up because you're getting really excited and maybe you're coming a bit more into your head or I think a lot of people tend to become goaloriented, don't they? They see the other person starting to really enjoy themselves.

[00:34:06]

So I need to get them to orgasm, I need to get them to climax. And quite often that can be because it makes us feel good, like we're good lovers. And it also means that now, then when they've had their orgasm, I can then have mine. So they can sometimes be.

[00:34:24]

I'm fighting. There's a repeating pattern here. There's like fervent agreement and then there's when you call up the things that are just so unfortunately common. Right, because it just brings me back to an earlier life before I was where I am now. And I imagine it does to you too.

[00:34:45]

Recollecting. And we hear this from our clients too. And so yeah, sorry, I just had to comment on that. It's just like, man, God, that sucks to hear that. Yeah, and it's really interesting when you can get to a place and you're in like a relationship with somebody where somebody can receive an orgasm and the pleasure and that's it.

[00:35:14]

You don't necessarily need to have the exchange back. It could just be you just do that for that person and your enjoyment comes from being there and being the one that guided them into a place where they were able to experience that pleasure. And sometimes it's nice just to be able to offer that and to be in the full mode of giving and holding that. And I think that can come from a lot of people, from a sense of like lack that once I've done it for somebody else, I need to get it for myself because otherwise I might not get it next time. And it can feel quite often like sex is this exchange.

[00:35:51]

So now I've done you, you need to do me. And it can take away from that experience because if I go down on a guy and he has his orgasm and I'm like, okay, my turn. You're almost saying I just did that just so that I could have my turn and move on, you know, or vice versa. Right?

[00:36:14]

This in particular, this instrumental approach to sex is what I call it, what I talk about on the podcast. It's like seeing sex as a means to another end, even if that other end is your own orgasm, right, rather than as an end in itself, as like being co conspirators in the service of pleasure. And that can look so many different ways. Like you said, it could be what some might call, you know, quote unquote, one sided. Which again, doesn't really encapsulate the fullness of the experience.

[00:36:47]

And it's only onesided if you've not agreed to what you've done, right? Like if what you thought you were going to do was having a mutual experience or this, that, or the other. The communication and negotiation is an important part of this. And thank you so much for touching on that too. No, you're welcome.

[00:37:09]

And something that pops up is that you were talking. It's good to look at. So I attend Consciousness King parties and tenture temples and those sorts of things, and we do all of the exercises and everything beforehand around consent boundaries and just bringing ourselves into our bodies. And the bit at the end where it's free for you to do what you want, they call that like the play space. And I really enjoy that word play because it really removes a lot of pressure, it creates a sense of fluidity, you know, so you're meeting your partner to play.

[00:37:48]

It just sounds so much more fun, so much more enjoyable, so much more relaxing. It doesn't sound like there needs to be a specific way that things work, like turntaking and it just yeah, I think because we end up having so many different ideas of what sex should look like from the fact that we're using the word sex, as we mentioned just a moment ago, the fact that oral sex can be seen as the appetizer. If you remove the word sex and you're just like, let's play this afternoon, then there is no orgasm at the end of it or penetration at the end of it. It can be literally just, let's have some fun and see where the ride takes, is beautiful. I think that's a really good place to begin to wrap up because we're coming towards the end of our time together today.

[00:38:39]

And so, Kala, I'm wondering, any parting thoughts for our listeners and for our community here? And where can people find you? And how can we all get on the waitlist for your Blow job course? So the best way to find me, because obviously, as you know yourself, social media and talking about blowjobs doesn't really go so well. Instagram is not a massive fan of that.

[00:39:02]

So, best place I do have the sexuality sanctuary with regards to social media. And then my website is Carliquaro.com. I have like a subscribe on my website so people can subscribe and then they'll get an email once the course is live. And anything parting before I go? Yes.

[00:39:26]

I think really the last thing that I said when we're looking at sex, maybe removing that word and introducing the word clay, because dropping into a play space means that you're going to create an element of safety when you play. There's a lot of negotiation who's going to do what, how we're going to do it. So, yeah, how can you bring play and fun and curiosity and pleasure into your interactions with your partners, whether they be casual or long term beautiful? I endorse this message. Carla, thank you so much for spending this time with us today.

[00:40:05]

And please come back and talk to us when the course is ready to cause I feel like we could have gone on for like another couple of hours and there's so much here we could still explore. So I hope we can see you again. Yes. Thank you, Sarah. Thank you.

[00:40:21]

And thank you, everybody, for spending your time here. We'll see you again soon.